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reipanMy only excuse for this is that I'm bored out of my mind and need something Else to think about. Here you go.
I think one of the reasons I'm so interested in Japan and Japanese culture is that it all focuses so heavily on societal norms and conventions, which have always fascinated me. (This does not, I hasten to add, mean that I always obey or even intend to obey them; but breaking the rules is so much more fun if you know and understand them.) Recently, this has got me to thinking. Yes, there are lots of deeply-ingrained societal norms in British culture...
Well.
I say "lots".
There are some.
A few.
One or two, anyway.
Okay, let's face it; what do we have? Really? I mean, you say "hello", smile politely and shake someone's hand when you meet them for the first time, and it's rude to...to speak rudely. Great, fine; I can go with that. But these are not rules. They're flexible. As long as you look friendly, you're technically not being rude. Generally speaking, I mean.
Now, I'm not knocking this as a system. Most of the time, it works for me. I can't help but feel, however, that we're missing out on a huge opportunity to baffle the rest of the world. What does it say about us that our crazy English-ness, with regards to social norms, can basically be summed up in a lack of what other countries have? We don't bow. We don't say "how do you do" - anymore, anyway. We don't normally address people as "Mr", "Mrs" or "Miss", unless we're students in a school. I am still in the habit of addressing letters or emails to "Dear Sirs" if I don't know the name or title of my intended recipient; it's only recently that I was told that that's actually pretty old-fashioned.
What happened? We had all of these things once. The nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were governed by all kinds of societal rules and regulations. While I'm sure that these were done away with for a reason - and I'm assured, by my parents at least, that they are not greatly missed - I can't help but think that people should be given the choice.
Then again, I'm pretty selective about the cultural norms I like to follow. Living in Japan, I'm going to have to observe quite a few that I find frankly absurd (I need to use different verbs for being given something by an "equal" and a "superior"? What the hell, Japanese language?) but also a few that I like. Bowing, for example. I love the idea of bowing to people in greeting. There are also a few ancient Japanese customs I hope to observe, as anybody I write to while I'm there will hopefully notice.
(Let me explain - it is a fundamental contradiction of my character that while I am, without doubt, a child of the digital age, I love writing letters. I don't know why. I like them a million times better than emails. I mean, don't get me wrong, someone sends me a cute email, I'll tear up - but take that email, write it out by hand, stick it in an envelope and put it through my door? Then, my friend, you have me in floods. Cuddling a pillow. At the breakfast table. Anyway, the Japanese of the Heian period were also great letter-writers, and set incredible store not just by the contents of the letter, but by the colour of the paper, the fragrance burned into it and the way it was folded. If somebody close to you sent you a straight-folded letter on white paper, no scent, then more often than not they were pissed.
I hope to learn more about this. Fear for your letterboxes, and be thankful that I'll be too far away to be able to include the seasonal leaves and flowers.)
I look at the Britain and Europe of old, and although I realise that in, say, the 1920s I'd have had a pretty tough time of it, there are little bits of that world that I'd like to be able to incorporate into my daily life. Kissing someone's hand, for example. I'd love to be able to do that - I like handshakes, but there's something charming about the idea of kissing a girl's hand when I meet her. Unfortunately, my one-woman attempt to revive this custom is so far failing miserably. (This gentlemanly impulse is the main reason, incidentally, why I wouldn't have done too well in the time period I'm trying to emulate.)
It got me thinking; I can't be the only person who has these occasional longings after the past. What do other people think?
I began to ask around. The answers were many and varied; some were pretty general.![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
hippyjolteon expressed a longing for "the sense of everything being amazing and new, the sense that anything is possible" with regards to the way things must have been before humans started to discover everything. (While I see her point, this would regrettably be a difficult environment to recreate in a modern setting.) Similarly, Zoe's father, Steve, said that he missed not having America about; possibly things were a lot less complicated without the USA, now that I think of it. (Disclaimer: No offense is meant to any Americans reading this. No Americans were harmed in the writing of this post.)
Some were unbelievably specific.rionaleonhart's answer to the question "which olden-day convention do you miss the most?" was, after some thought, "the subjunctive".
...again, I can't exactly argue. I apologise for any missed subjunctives in this post, my dear; if I were a better person, I would have made sure they were all present and correct, but alas! this post grows long, and I am lazy.
...I also wish that people said things like "alas" more often. Know what else? "Not". I mean, "didn't", "couldn't", "shouldn't" - all wonderful contractions, but just once in a while I'd like to see their mother word used creatively.
What else? Well, quite a few people - including my mother - simply said "manners". (This is interesting, especially considering what I said earlier about how politeness has changed over the years.) I'm not sure whether or not I agree with that - I mean, I consider myself fairly polite (in spite of my best efforts), and I agree that a lot of people are Just Plain Rude, but...hmm. I like a sort of informal politeness; I can't imagine ever being stiff. (First person to make a lesbian joke sees the sharp edge of whatever I have to hand.) I doubt that anybody I know really intends that society become ruled by manners either, to be fair.
lonelyinrussia and her housemate said that they missed the old-fashioned parties. Organised dance. I would dearly love it if organised dance made a comeback - having to learn the dances would be a nuisance, of course, but life would be gloriously easy once I had. (I'm told that girls enjoy being asked politely to dance. Um. The last time I did that I just got looked at funny; what am I doing wrong?) lonelyinrussia expressed a fondness for old-fashioned courtship, which I suppose I'd enjoy if it were sped up a little.
The little polite gestures men offered to women once upon a time seem very popular on both sides of the gender divide - doffing one's hat came up, but so did things you're technically still supposed to do - giving up one's seat to a pregnant lady, and the like. (I find that intriguing, for reasons I'll get to later.) Being helped out of cars and offered an arm to lean on when in high heels or on stairs, Sarah offered. And offering somebody one's jacket. As somebody who often finds herself cold, I actually get offered jackets all the time, and I agree that it's charming; unfortunately I'm a little too embarrassingly tiny to return the favour. I'm seriously considering starting to carry around a jacket that's a couple of sizes too big, so that I can start to give back a little to the community.
Opinions were mixed on both hand-kissing and having doors held open for you - most people liked the idea of the former, although one person said she'd find it a bit odd, whereas Sarah said she'd feel strange having doors held open for her. (Holding doors open for people has actually gotten me into trouble with men before. I ended up being forced to lose a contest of wills between myself and a gentleman of my acquaintance when I insisted he go ahead of me and he insisted otherwise, both under the premise of "ladies first". I don't want to go into the whole thing, but twenty minutes latersafaraz carried me into the pub.)
seemeshining said she missed both chivalry and the Spice Girls being popular, which is worthy of mention if only because it was the answer containing the two most disparate elements I've yet heard in relation to this topic. (I'm not too particular about how far back we go, incidentally, although while I can see the aesthetic appeal of chivalry I think it would be a pain to put into practice. Think about it. Courtly love all over again? It looks pretty in the books, but remember how few of these people ended up with partners they'd actually wanted to marry. Perhaps that one's better left to the fairytales.)
Another interesting point was fashion. People seemed keen for the return of both canes and top hats - I wholeheartedly concur on both points, especially if the canes have a sword inside. Personally, I'd like to see a return of the time when gloves were standard, even in summer, even indoors. (I'm not sure why, because I don't actually like wearing gloves. I'm sure I could get used to it if I had to do it all the time, though.) Zoe wants ruffs back, and seemed quite keen on elderly fashions in general. I'm not quite sure where I stand on this issue. I suppose it would be fine if I were still free to flit back and forth across the gender divide.
The gender divide. Now, here's where I tripped up on something. Although guys seemed in favour as well, most of the girls I talked to seemed to miss, most overwhelmingly, the little platitudes that used to come as standard to a lady from a gentleman. One friend went as far as to say that if a man was going to do everything for her, she wouldn't mind "being seen and not heard, and only expected to look pretty".
That, I find odd. And unfathomable. I suppose because I've been approaching this, in spite of my own gender, from the other side - I'd like to do the gentleman thing, not be offered it. I'd get frustrated if I were treated like a lady more than once or twice. And while I don't mind being the gentleman, I don't think it makes me any better than guys who aren't fans of the concept. Nor do I think it means that every girl I know is helpless and weak, or that every girl I know should become helpless and weak so that I feel justified in my urge to be nice to her.
Not so strange? It is when combined with the response I got from my father - that he comes from a generation that put so much work into destroying those traditions that it's difficult to think of any he'd really miss. A lot of effort went into stopping kissing a girl's hand on your first meeting, apparently. Doesn't that seem a little odd?
So, friendslist and possible stalkers, I put this problem to you. Are there any bits of Times Gone By that you wish still existed today? Why do you think that this is? And do you think - really think - that if these things were compulsory once again, we'd all be happier?
Thank you for your time.
(A last note to any nitpickers among us - I realise that, while my icon declares that "I've got a theory", I fail to actually declare said theory in my post, opting instead for a scattering of mine and other peoples' opinions. If this upsets you, go and lie down in a dark place for a while - would you really have wanted this post much longer, anyway?)
I think one of the reasons I'm so interested in Japan and Japanese culture is that it all focuses so heavily on societal norms and conventions, which have always fascinated me. (This does not, I hasten to add, mean that I always obey or even intend to obey them; but breaking the rules is so much more fun if you know and understand them.) Recently, this has got me to thinking. Yes, there are lots of deeply-ingrained societal norms in British culture...
Well.
I say "lots".
There are some.
A few.
One or two, anyway.
Okay, let's face it; what do we have? Really? I mean, you say "hello", smile politely and shake someone's hand when you meet them for the first time, and it's rude to...to speak rudely. Great, fine; I can go with that. But these are not rules. They're flexible. As long as you look friendly, you're technically not being rude. Generally speaking, I mean.
Now, I'm not knocking this as a system. Most of the time, it works for me. I can't help but feel, however, that we're missing out on a huge opportunity to baffle the rest of the world. What does it say about us that our crazy English-ness, with regards to social norms, can basically be summed up in a lack of what other countries have? We don't bow. We don't say "how do you do" - anymore, anyway. We don't normally address people as "Mr", "Mrs" or "Miss", unless we're students in a school. I am still in the habit of addressing letters or emails to "Dear Sirs" if I don't know the name or title of my intended recipient; it's only recently that I was told that that's actually pretty old-fashioned.
What happened? We had all of these things once. The nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were governed by all kinds of societal rules and regulations. While I'm sure that these were done away with for a reason - and I'm assured, by my parents at least, that they are not greatly missed - I can't help but think that people should be given the choice.
Then again, I'm pretty selective about the cultural norms I like to follow. Living in Japan, I'm going to have to observe quite a few that I find frankly absurd (I need to use different verbs for being given something by an "equal" and a "superior"? What the hell, Japanese language?) but also a few that I like. Bowing, for example. I love the idea of bowing to people in greeting. There are also a few ancient Japanese customs I hope to observe, as anybody I write to while I'm there will hopefully notice.
(Let me explain - it is a fundamental contradiction of my character that while I am, without doubt, a child of the digital age, I love writing letters. I don't know why. I like them a million times better than emails. I mean, don't get me wrong, someone sends me a cute email, I'll tear up - but take that email, write it out by hand, stick it in an envelope and put it through my door? Then, my friend, you have me in floods. Cuddling a pillow. At the breakfast table. Anyway, the Japanese of the Heian period were also great letter-writers, and set incredible store not just by the contents of the letter, but by the colour of the paper, the fragrance burned into it and the way it was folded. If somebody close to you sent you a straight-folded letter on white paper, no scent, then more often than not they were pissed.
I hope to learn more about this. Fear for your letterboxes, and be thankful that I'll be too far away to be able to include the seasonal leaves and flowers.)
I look at the Britain and Europe of old, and although I realise that in, say, the 1920s I'd have had a pretty tough time of it, there are little bits of that world that I'd like to be able to incorporate into my daily life. Kissing someone's hand, for example. I'd love to be able to do that - I like handshakes, but there's something charming about the idea of kissing a girl's hand when I meet her. Unfortunately, my one-woman attempt to revive this custom is so far failing miserably. (This gentlemanly impulse is the main reason, incidentally, why I wouldn't have done too well in the time period I'm trying to emulate.)
It got me thinking; I can't be the only person who has these occasional longings after the past. What do other people think?
I began to ask around. The answers were many and varied; some were pretty general.
hippyjolteon expressed a longing for "the sense of everything being amazing and new, the sense that anything is possible" with regards to the way things must have been before humans started to discover everything. (While I see her point, this would regrettably be a difficult environment to recreate in a modern setting.) Similarly, Zoe's father, Steve, said that he missed not having America about; possibly things were a lot less complicated without the USA, now that I think of it. (Disclaimer: No offense is meant to any Americans reading this. No Americans were harmed in the writing of this post.) Some were unbelievably specific.
rionaleonhart's answer to the question "which olden-day convention do you miss the most?" was, after some thought, "the subjunctive"....again, I can't exactly argue. I apologise for any missed subjunctives in this post, my dear; if I were a better person, I would have made sure they were all present and correct, but alas! this post grows long, and I am lazy.
...I also wish that people said things like "alas" more often. Know what else? "Not". I mean, "didn't", "couldn't", "shouldn't" - all wonderful contractions, but just once in a while I'd like to see their mother word used creatively.
What else? Well, quite a few people - including my mother - simply said "manners". (This is interesting, especially considering what I said earlier about how politeness has changed over the years.) I'm not sure whether or not I agree with that - I mean, I consider myself fairly polite (in spite of my best efforts), and I agree that a lot of people are Just Plain Rude, but...hmm. I like a sort of informal politeness; I can't imagine ever being stiff. (First person to make a lesbian joke sees the sharp edge of whatever I have to hand.) I doubt that anybody I know really intends that society become ruled by manners either, to be fair.
lonelyinrussia and her housemate said that they missed the old-fashioned parties. Organised dance. I would dearly love it if organised dance made a comeback - having to learn the dances would be a nuisance, of course, but life would be gloriously easy once I had. (I'm told that girls enjoy being asked politely to dance. Um. The last time I did that I just got looked at funny; what am I doing wrong?) lonelyinrussia expressed a fondness for old-fashioned courtship, which I suppose I'd enjoy if it were sped up a little. The little polite gestures men offered to women once upon a time seem very popular on both sides of the gender divide - doffing one's hat came up, but so did things you're technically still supposed to do - giving up one's seat to a pregnant lady, and the like. (I find that intriguing, for reasons I'll get to later.) Being helped out of cars and offered an arm to lean on when in high heels or on stairs, Sarah offered. And offering somebody one's jacket. As somebody who often finds herself cold, I actually get offered jackets all the time, and I agree that it's charming; unfortunately I'm a little too embarrassingly tiny to return the favour. I'm seriously considering starting to carry around a jacket that's a couple of sizes too big, so that I can start to give back a little to the community.
Opinions were mixed on both hand-kissing and having doors held open for you - most people liked the idea of the former, although one person said she'd find it a bit odd, whereas Sarah said she'd feel strange having doors held open for her. (Holding doors open for people has actually gotten me into trouble with men before. I ended up being forced to lose a contest of wills between myself and a gentleman of my acquaintance when I insisted he go ahead of me and he insisted otherwise, both under the premise of "ladies first". I don't want to go into the whole thing, but twenty minutes later
safaraz carried me into the pub.)seemeshining said she missed both chivalry and the Spice Girls being popular, which is worthy of mention if only because it was the answer containing the two most disparate elements I've yet heard in relation to this topic. (I'm not too particular about how far back we go, incidentally, although while I can see the aesthetic appeal of chivalry I think it would be a pain to put into practice. Think about it. Courtly love all over again? It looks pretty in the books, but remember how few of these people ended up with partners they'd actually wanted to marry. Perhaps that one's better left to the fairytales.)Another interesting point was fashion. People seemed keen for the return of both canes and top hats - I wholeheartedly concur on both points, especially if the canes have a sword inside. Personally, I'd like to see a return of the time when gloves were standard, even in summer, even indoors. (I'm not sure why, because I don't actually like wearing gloves. I'm sure I could get used to it if I had to do it all the time, though.) Zoe wants ruffs back, and seemed quite keen on elderly fashions in general. I'm not quite sure where I stand on this issue. I suppose it would be fine if I were still free to flit back and forth across the gender divide.
The gender divide. Now, here's where I tripped up on something. Although guys seemed in favour as well, most of the girls I talked to seemed to miss, most overwhelmingly, the little platitudes that used to come as standard to a lady from a gentleman. One friend went as far as to say that if a man was going to do everything for her, she wouldn't mind "being seen and not heard, and only expected to look pretty".
That, I find odd. And unfathomable. I suppose because I've been approaching this, in spite of my own gender, from the other side - I'd like to do the gentleman thing, not be offered it. I'd get frustrated if I were treated like a lady more than once or twice. And while I don't mind being the gentleman, I don't think it makes me any better than guys who aren't fans of the concept. Nor do I think it means that every girl I know is helpless and weak, or that every girl I know should become helpless and weak so that I feel justified in my urge to be nice to her.
Not so strange? It is when combined with the response I got from my father - that he comes from a generation that put so much work into destroying those traditions that it's difficult to think of any he'd really miss. A lot of effort went into stopping kissing a girl's hand on your first meeting, apparently. Doesn't that seem a little odd?
So, friendslist and possible stalkers, I put this problem to you. Are there any bits of Times Gone By that you wish still existed today? Why do you think that this is? And do you think - really think - that if these things were compulsory once again, we'd all be happier?
Thank you for your time.
(A last note to any nitpickers among us - I realise that, while my icon declares that "I've got a theory", I fail to actually declare said theory in my post, opting instead for a scattering of mine and other peoples' opinions. If this upsets you, go and lie down in a dark place for a while - would you really have wanted this post much longer, anyway?)
